Wednesday, August 27, 2008

In Bad Faith

“The entire Kandhmal district has been placed under indefinite curfew and the government has issued shoot at sight orders.

The order was issued after violent clashes between the Vishwa Hindu Parishad workers and local Christian groups over the past few days.

Atleast 14 people are reported dead in the district although the official number stands at ten. There have been no further clashes on Wednesday but a retired DGP's house was attacked near Raikia.

Hundreds of policemen have been deployed to prevent any more violence from taking place.

The trouble started after VHP leader Laxmanananda Saraswati was killed on Saturday night. The saffron group then retaliated by setting fire to an orphanage killing a worker and injuring a priest.

The police say there is no conclusive evidence that Maoists were involved in the attack on Saturday.

Two people have been arrested but their identities have not been revealed. Many others including Christian activist leaders are being interrogated.” ( )

No evidence, no proof, just blind faith that VHP leader Laxmanananda Saraswati, who was speaking against Christian conversion policies in the state of Kandhamal District in Orissa.
However, in Face The Nation with Sagarika Ghose, on the night of 26th August, 2008, a fiery RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav, who was infuriated at allegations that Hindu groups were targeting missionaries and Christians in Orissa said - “The situation is quite different. Hindus are at the receiving end. A highly respected saint was killed. There is enough evidence to prove the complicity of Christian organisations in the murder.”

Reverend Dr Richard Howell, general secretary of the Evangelical Fellowship of India rejected Madhav’s claim. He said conversion has become an excuse to attack Christians and malign them. “The VHP gets the maximum amount of money India than Christians. Christians have used money to serve and empower the poor and marginalized. Not a single case has been proved till date in the courts of forced conversion (by Christian groups),” he said.

The issue is not religion but poverty, said Professor Mohanty. “Kandhamal is one of the poorest regions in the country. Seventy per cent people here are below the poverty line; 51 per cent are tribals and 16 per cent are Dalits,” he said.

“It is a situation of poverty and landlessness, both among Hindus and Christians. Orissa has become the experiment ground of globalisation, economic reforms, mega projects and Hindutva politics.”

Hindu groups are not to blame for the violence and the state is in turmoil because of Christian missionaries, alleged Madhav. “Every conversion in Orissa has to be registered with the local police or magistrate but no such thing happens. Where is the chance for Hindutva politics when missionaries are going about aggressively and alluring people,” he said.

The Sangh Parivar doesn’t hate conversions as much as it does Christians, alleged Howell. “An ideology of hatred has been propagated by some sections of the Sangh Parivar. They don’t hate Christian service; it is the very identity of being a Christian that is hated. There are just 2.4 per cent Christians in India and we too have contributed to the growth of the country.”

Christians are not hated, insisted Madhav. “Every religion is respected in this country but Christians criticise and attack Hindu religion. It this attitude of Christians which is leading to tension in this country,” he alleged.

The communal divide in Orissa’s tribal districts is the result of poverty and “competitive politics”, said Mohanty. “The shrinking rights of tribals over forests and land and the coming of mega projects is the economic issue there. They are all poor there and poverty is being diverted to communalism. It is competitive politics,” he said.

Madhav called such an analysis wrong. “There is a clear cut division between Hindus and Christians and it is because of their (missionaries) wrongdoing and Congress leaders. A holy person is killed and the very next day the Congress tables a no-confidence motion against the state government—what does it suggest? The Congress is a part of a larger political conspiracy,” he alleged.

Howell announced Christian institutions in the country would close on August 29 to protest against the attacks in Orissa. “I hope the civil society wakes up before it’s too late,” he said.
Madhav said Christian groups were free to shut their schools and institutions but they must also shut “proselytization” activity.

“Do not make this a Christian versus Hindu issue. We must go into the sources of violence,” said Mohant

My Observations:

This is not a problem of two religions clashing together. It is a case of caste dynamics at play. What Hindus need to do is rescue the downtrodden from their abject poverty and the influence of casteism. Rather than make it a political issue. If thousands of humans who have no food to eat and no money to spare, no education they can rely on, are turning to Christianity, where they are released from the evil grips of man-made caste divisions and are respected as humans and their children, given education and food to eat, only Hindus are to blame for this.

And in times to come, the Dalit movement in India will gain power. So will many of the poverty stricken turn to Christianity. After all, dignity is what everyone loves to have and it is a basic human right. Lets face it, at the end of the day, people need food in their stomachs, clothes on their bodies and a shelter over their heads and all these come at a cost. If to save oneself from the clenching grip of poverty, a human is willing to take on to Christianity, which promises equality, why blame it on conversion? Self respect, is not an exclusive property of the rich. It is again a basic human need.

Therefore, you bigoted mongrels, who in the name of religion will shun your own poor brethren, clean up your own home first?

If Hindus in whatever name they choose to call themselves, VHP or RSS, are unable to help the poor because their agenda is such that the vote bank is dependent on poverty and lack of education of the people in their constituency, then let them face the consequences thereof.

In the meantime, it would help them to remember the services given in the name of Jesus, by illustrious souls such as Mother Theresa. Or the Sisters and Fathers, at numerous schools and colleges across the country, where thousand of children are educated and made into proud citizens of India. Institutions we can truly be proud of, where education walks hand-in-hand with Faith, no matter, which it might be. Let them not forget that some of the best schools and Colleges are run by Christian missionaries, many of whom have left their countries to live in India.

What has been the so-called VHP and RSS contribution, if I may ask, which can match the zeal of Christian missionaries?

I am not a Christian. But have received enormously from the Christian institutions, friends and family. I love them all.

I only dislike people who say they are Christian Brahmins.

I only dislike people who say they are Christian Brahmins.

Then I know, where the disease has started from.

Blind faith? Fragile peace blown to bits in Orissa

Shoot-at-sight order issued in Kandhmal

Orissa fallout: Christian schools, colleges shut across India

PM terms Orissa violence a 'national shame'


Amrita said...

Thank you Julia, your post brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for speaking up for your Christian brothers and sisters. We are all children of the same creator God.

Just praying that the violence may end and peace may return to Orissa. Dr Richard Howell is our family friend.

I tried to post the IBN Live videos but they wouldn 't load.

God bless you Julia. i must show this post to my mother.

flygye12 said...

a) there's no smoke without a fire
b) taali ek haath se nahi bajti
c) missionaries need to change their mediavel zealous 'saving souls' attitude..this is the 21st century for God's sake. what is going to change in a person's life by changing religion?
d) reading God of Small Things now a days...she writes a very nice piece about Dalits in Kerla who got converted to Christianity. Their status remains the same in the society (ie being ill treated by the 'upper' castes). They can't apply for posts reserved for the backward castes because there are no castes in Christianity...Catch 22 situation for them isn't it :(

(not saying anything against VHP etc cause u've already said my thoughts :)

Julia Dutta said...

Dear Amrita,
I will speak for truth, no matter where and who it is. Right now, I will speak for Christians, because over and over again, they are being targeted by bigotted Hindus. All because of their zeal to spead the Gospel and they are not doing it for any other reason except that Christ said in his own words - my quotation may be incorrect though - Go, far and wide and spread the word of the Lord..." What is the problem there. If thousands of humans are trampled under the evil hands of castiesm, why should the down trodden not rise to ask for dignity for themselves? There is no proof that the killing was done by Christians...I refuse to believe that it was, for I am witness all my life to my Christian friends and teachers who contributed to my life in so many ways, if I can put a finger on the killing of the Swami to Christian doing, it is like washing out and denying the fact that to the best of my knowledge they cannot kill! It is against their belief system to do so. It is impossible!
On the other hand, I believe that they are being victimized and the killing could have happened by the doings of the Hindu bigots themselves, in an effort to push blame on Christians. Until proved, I will NOT accept this blasphemous talk. Today all the Christian institutes across the country, some 4000 or more have gone on protest by keeping their gates closed. This is a silent protest. Why can't the country see that if they had to protest in a different way, they would. Fire for fire. Gun for gun. But this is not the Christian way. They follow what they have seen and read in the Bible - Christ bled and bore His torture, still praying that His tormentors be forgiven; never once did He even think of retaliation. I stand tall to say - It was NOT the Christians who killed the Swami. STOP! Victimizing Christians. And DO IT NOW!

Julia Dutta said...

I stand by what I said on my post. If Hindus cannot uplift the plight of the downtrodden in their society, and give up their set by Manu laws in the present century, let the downtrodden decide where they want to go. True, in Hinduism there is no conversion, in so much as this that, you cannot become a Hindu; you have to be born one. But I do not agree with the caste system in India. In modern times, what is a Brahmin priest to do, with his bare bodied mantras and japams...who has the time for all this. If you see, Flygye, the upper castes, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, vaishyas and the many sub-groups in this three do not change their religion even if they are brought up by Christians, like I have. I will believe in the Bible or go to Church, but may not convert. It is only the suffering lower castes that convert. So what if they find solace in any other path, or a religion that has no castiesm at all? Good for them! They have food to eat and their children are taught and educated very often free of cost. This is not a bargain. This is true charity. We Hindus cannot even understand this concept, because our charity at the Temple and the hoards of beggars who sit outside it has to have a carrot for us to get involved in it - either what I donate to the temple/ashrama must give me tax benefits or the food I give to the beggars outside must give me moksha or wipe away my sins. A businessman will cheat his customers all day and feed the poor in the morning, hoping that the sins of yesterday are wiped away.
Hence I say, Flygye, let us look into our House, and see waht is missing rather than point fingers at others. If Dalits in Kerela find that their lot has not changed, it may be because, they too are in the Christian Hindu cross identity crisis, like Christian Brahmin! Or the case must be looked at more carefully. It cannot be that just conversion. Kerela has the highest number of alcoholics in the state, it has no means of industralization due to Marxist government,all its people rush to the Gulf and throng to other states in the country to find work, can you then, just by reading a book, GoST, come to a conclusion that despite conversion their lives continue to be the same? GoST is a novel, not a Research Paper on the condition of the Dalits there. Enjoy, GoST, the most wonderful book I have ever read, for its true value - it is poetry in prose!
Julia :))))

flygye12 said...

okay, i accept, i dint read ur post fully n dint know about killing allegations....i did write that i agree with ur views about Hindu/Indian casteist traditions


why can't the missionaries do all the goodwork without trying to change the original framework of any society? why do they have this religious chauvnism? i still can't get this 'saving the souls' and 'spreading the word of the christ' business.

yes its business. u know when our ships go to Amsterdam one priest and two nuns always board the ship. they offer permanent residency in exchange for taking up christianity.

are these people living in the 21st century?
what wud the world look like if EVERYONE became a Christian or a Muslim?
aren't ALL the colours of the rainbow to be respected?

Julia Dutta said...

Dear Flygye,
I will try to answer your questions although, I do hope Amrita was here to address them, as I am not a Christian.

Every religion has its set of beliefs. So I am nobody to question anyone’s choice. As you well know, Frygye, Christian missionaries are not doing only social work, they are contributing substantially to the making of a good citizen in India. There is no force for conversion at all. This is what I know.

When I was a little girl, I was put in boarding School. On Sundays, the Christians were taken to Church. The matron asked me what religion I belonged to, Hindu or Christianity. I did not know the meaning of the question, so I said both. Taking forward from my name Julia, she thought I was Christian. So I began to go to church along with other children. When I went home for the winter holidays and cried to my mother, to take me to Church on Sunday, she became aware of the fact that I was going to church. There was no hungama. When I was sent back to school, she told the Headmistress that I was a Hindu. The church going ended there.

Then I came to Bombay and there I was in a Convent School. These were my growing up years and I had many doubts and problems as all teenagers do. The Sisters invited the Fathers from the neighbouring boys school, fathers who were qualified to assist us and we received councelling, on and off, many of us who were in their teens. I have been to Churches whenever I can, and wherever I go, if there is one. I am not a convert, and there has never been any force to be converted. How can I after all my days and years, behind me say that Christians force you to convert? In fact, it is one religion that really works from the heart – if your heart is not open to Christ, you will not be able to accept Christianity. Nor will they accept you. So in a way there is a propoganda that is following you around that they force conversion. They talk of the word of Christ, just as Ramdev speak of Yoga or someone else speaks of the Gita. If I as a listener, feel touched by the words of the Gita and want to take on its tenets as a way of life, can you say the teacher converted me. No, I have chosen of my own free will. Since you are a young man, you must test the waters before you come to conclusions. Keep an open mind.

All humans need a spiritual force to guide them. If their Krishnas and Ramas and the entire pantheon of Gods and goddesses, were not able to uplift the downtrodden and the miserably hungry and starving millions we call scheduled castes, then, please allow someone else to do it, in the name of Christ!

Thanks for your interest and your patience to keep the debate going.

Nitin Joseph said...

Very Well written and thoughtful post Julia.
I am Indian Christian. And i love my hindu country men and women. I am just as proud of this country and its traditions as any member of VHP and RSS.
flygye if you insist that christains give up our Christ given mandate to share the Gospel because its archane why do you still live and in dark ages and treat your dalit brethern as you do? Rss and VHP may by ready to kill for what they believe in but as Christians Jesus and History has taught us to die for what we believe. We believe that God created every man equal and that ever man is born free. And i know that hinduism treats the low caste as no better than animals. Its the truth. These unjust social structures have existed for millenia. This means the poor dalits and the tribals till today have no access to education and medical facilities. Live hand to mouth and accept thier fate because karma is burned into the indian conciousnes.
In rapidly developing india the caste systems are being shaken and christain missionaries working in far flung corners of the country are unawares themselves of the changes that they are bringing in the country.
Most often all they do is run a small clinic or a school. School! Literacy! These are powerful agents of change. Ushering in dreaded thoughts in most radical hindus minds of dalits rising up in millions and questioning the caste system.
Its much more then religion the fight is about. Its a virluent strain of nationalism. That fears other religions as usurper of Indian ‘way of life’. Its religious nationalism. Its called Hindutva. A marriage of religion and nationalism that takes violent approach for the hearts and minds of the majority in India.

Julia Dutta said...

Thank you for that comment of yours. It is good for all of us to know the facts as they are, and as told, straight from the horses mount. I always feel, that, One has to be a Christian to understand the heart of Christianity, as is the case with all religions. Throwing stones at each other, makes no meaning at all. Many thanks for clearing the air...

Durgasankar Mandal said...

:) Reminds me of the story in which a friend tells a hunter who has a remarkable dog that walks on water "your dog can't swim". It's easy to point fingures at others than oneself. It's quite easy to identify the symptoms and be so focussed on that that a seach for a cause is forgotten. Saying that "Hindus shape up" would solve it? Who kills the dalits, it's the educated, elite and rich? Who raped and killed Priyanka bhotemange . Study each of these stories, and you will find that it's the uneducated and mostly poor hindus who perhaps don't have what we call a house.

Shouting that it is a national shame won't deter them, so won't a death penalty. For they are already dead psychologically.

Can we try to educate at least one of such people? We would hae taken a far bigger step than posting on the blog - which I am doing right now.

In order to empathise with one group, let's not say that all is laud everything Christian andattack everything Hindu. Bible does preach for tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye - for example. Much harm in the world has been done in the name of religion - the Crusade, the pogrom, the Holocaust, and many other.Even in India. Vasco da Gama burnt Hindus alive in Goa

Well there is flaw everywhere. But let us look beyond and try to build and not destroy; let us take a spark of good deed and nurture it and not criticise.

Amrita said...

I 've been wanting to join this very lively conversation but I wanted to give it some careful thought and I 've been unwell.

First of all the VHP and RSS have no right to speak on behalf of all Hindus,just as a particular group of Christians cannot represent all the colours of Christianity.
There are millions of Hindus who are moderate and do not adhere to the views of the Sangh Parivar.

If I want to change my faith, how does it affect the next man? Every human being has a right to believe in whatever religion or philosophy they choose to. It is a God-given freedom. God has freed humans to choose even not to believe in Him too.He is not going to force Himself down anybody 's throat.He reveals Himself in nature and the Holy Scriptures, but if one wants to turn a blind eye to it, so be it.
Even if the dalit and downtrodden people of our country want to convert to Christianity, Islam or Buddhism becasue their religion has deprived them of their basic human rights , so be it whether it be for the sake of pure heart conversion or the attraction of a better life. .. they are free to do so and no one should object. It only shows what a poor hold their religion has on them in the first place.

Now -why do Christians spread the Gospel - the good news of Jesus Christ.
1. It is a command given to us by Chtist Himself.
2.We believe that Jesus is the TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE NO ONE CAN COME TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH HIM.We have to share it with all men everywhere whether they accept it or not.
Its like a poor family living down the street, they have nothing to eat and you know of a place where plenty of nourishing food is availabe for free, everyday - how can you not tell them.
Somebody has said -Spreading the Gospel message of Christ is like one beggar telling another beggar where to find food.

3. We eveangelicals firmly believe that in order to be a Christian one has to be born again - which means accepting Jesus as one 's personal Saviour.You can be a name-sake Christian or a traditional Christian but that won 't do you any good. God does not have any grand children. He only has children.So if you want to enter into the kingdom of God you must be born again, accept Jesus as your personal Saviour, as He Himself taught.
If a cat gives birth to kitten in a garage they don 't become cars, the same way if a person is born into a Christian family he does not become a Christian. Its a personal choice.
So if people are converting to Christianity for econimic or social reasons, it really won 't do them much good in eternity.They can only improve their lot here on earth but not after life.

Many people followed Jesus as He was feeding the hungry and healing the sick and doing miracles, but He said GO BACK - you cannot be my followers unless you are willing to take up your cross and follow me. Don 't come to me for social and economic reasons.Jesus Himself discouraged crowds and emotional followers...and many turned away because they could not pay the price.

4. Being a Christian is a costly affair. Its not a namby-pamby thing. Many Christians are not living the way Jesus commanded us to live and we are spreading the Gospel among our people too.
Jesus said "You cannot be my disciple unless you are willing to cut ties with your family and society and riches if they stand in your way.

5 It is not true that only dalits and economically backward people have accepted Christianity. There are thousands of Christians who belong to the upper castes and strong economic backgrounds.

Many of them have been cut off from their families, inheritance and society when they accepted Christianity. If you want to be a true Christian, you have to be prepared to GIVE UP.

My great grandfathers left their home and wealth in order to become Christians. They were wealthy land owners of Western UP (thakurs).Many people are doing so today. I personally know hundreds of them.
My church padre (priest) comes from a Brahmin fasmily. His fathers were royal priests of Chattisgargh.But when he became a Christian, he was turned out of his house naked (his brother-in-law gave him his clothes) What was he getting in return
Sometimes he had to eat leaves to stifle his hunger.For more than 17 years his father refused all contact with him, but now he has reached out to him.Thee are thousands like him.

So Christianity will make you poor my dear brothers and sisters - you will have to give up your family and relationships etc. Never think otherwise.

A very wealthy student from Nepal became a Christian and his father stopped sending him his college fees, so we got together to pay it till he finished his MSc.His uncle came with a gun to shoot him when he visited Nepal, but God miraculously saved him.

This is not only happening in India but all over the world. You should read what happenes to you when you accept Christ in China ot Muslim countries.

This is very long now so i must end. But i hope I have answered some questions.

Amrita said...

The pogrom and Holocost and Vasco D Gama 's violence were not Christian acts.They cannot be included under that title.

The eye for an eye thing is found in the Old Testament, when God was forming the Jewish nation.Jesus asked his disciples to turn the other cheek and love your enemies.

Amrita said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Julia Dutta said...

Hi Durga,
Thanks for visiting and your comment. But I tend to go with Amrita. The holocaust and Vasco da Gama's violence has nothing to do with the present violence in Orissa. Eye for an eye standpoint, like Narendra Modi's Godhra carnage can only sprout from an extremely pathological mind as is Modi's. We cannot quote Vasco da Gama here it make no sense.

But, really, the truth being out, it was not the Christians after all, it was the Maoist, it is double shame on all Hindu fundamentalists.


Julia Dutta said...

For your very elaborate and indeed, extremely moving comment, thank you. I wish many read this comment, and are enlightened by it. It is true, that turning to accept Christ in one's life as a living God, is not an easy matter. Indeed, even the decision to convert is not.
Your comment puts many things in perspective.

Durgasankar Mandal said...

Julia, The point I am trying to make is: human beings are prone to violence. Religion is one excuse that made them violent more often than anything else. The intent is also to show that, in every religion there have been a violent lot, and they popped up through out history.

In that vein the Vajrang Dal is as rotten as Christian church througout the ages that took recourse to torture and maiming those who disagreed with them.

How Jesus was and what his teachings were is not a question here. If Jesus was a saint, so was Gautama the Buddha, and so was Ramakrishna paramahansa. They all were divine messengers. It is puerile to say that Jesus was the only middleman to divinity.

Let me quote from the Bible -
Apparently Jesus himself said:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *
The Church through out the ages took that literally. The link below gives churches excesses
Or this link for crimes that were committed in the name of religion.

The intention is not to denigrate the Christian religion, but to state it as a matter of fact that we all have flaws. Let's not focus on them, let's think how we can move ahead and attain what is called peace.

Anonymous said...

The very premise on which you build your argument is erroneous durgashankar. To understand the verses from the Bible you need to understand the context first. Text and context go hand it hand.
To better grasp the meaning of any literature you need to have basic grasp of the setting. The context it was spoken in, why it was spoken and to whom. Its called "Sitz Im leben".
This verse is the conclusion of a story or Parable of ten servants.

Read the passage in its entirety and then tell me do you still think the way you had thought earlier.

Luke 19:

10 For the Son of Man[a] came to seek and save those who are lost.”

Parable of the Ten Servants.

11 The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was
nearing Jerusalem, he told them a story to correct the impression that
the Kingdom of God would begin right away. 12 He said, “A nobleman was
called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13
Before he left, he called together ten of his servants and divided among
them ten pounds of silver,[b] saying, ‘Invest this for me while I am gone.’

14 But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We
do not want him to be our king.’

15 “After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants
to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits
were. 16 The first servant reported, ‘Master, I invested your money and
made ten times the original amount!’

17 “‘Well done!’ the king exclaimed. ‘You are a good servant. You have
been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be
governor of ten cities as your reward.’

18 “The next servant reported, ‘Master, I invested your money and made
five times the original amount.’

19 “‘Well done!’ the king said. ‘You will be governor over five cities.’

20 “But the third servant brought back only the original amount of
money and said, ‘Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. 21 I was
afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn’t yours
and harvesting crops you didn’t plant.’

22 “‘You wicked servant!’ the king roared. ‘Your own words condemn
you. If you knew that I’m a hard man who takes what isn’t mine and
harvests crops I didn’t plant, 23 why didn’t you deposit my money in the
bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’

24 “Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered,
‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten

25 “‘But, master,’ they said, ‘he already has ten pounds!’

26 “‘Yes,’ the king replied, ‘and to those who use well what they are
given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what
little they have will be taken away.

27 And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their
king—bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.’”

28 After telling this story, Jesus went on toward Jerusalem

Julia Dutta said...

I would like to go with what you said last - that we have to get on with our lives in peaceful manner. In any case, Durga, all religions speak of peace and fellow feeling, but when Hindus begin to target Christians, in remote places, where they are doing good work, I get annoyed. If Hindus had such pride in their religion, why not do some seva too? Ramakrishna Mission is different; they are only doing seva like Bharat Seva ashram. In any case,I wish you will respond to Nathan as well.

Julia Dutta said...

Hello Nathan,
Welcome to my blog! I liked what you wrote....if we can likewise utilise wisely, the blessings bestowed upon us by God, His blessings will grow bigger in our lives. Likewise, If a man who takes on the Bible in his hands will benefit much if he can sow the seeds of wisdom written in its pages.
And now, I must begin to bring out my Bible once again from the book shelf and begin to read it again....The Book of Romans is my favourite. Such hope there!

Durgasankar Mandal said...


I guess I don't have to respond much to Nathan except that I would request him to read my earlier post once more; and that the key phrase there is "The Church through out the ages took that literally."

History documents how the Christian Church has the most human blood on its hands. It has killed men more than any other religion on earth, and all over the world. It has killed many more than its two brother Semetic religions taken together - the Judaists and the Islamists . If we can't acknowledge this as fact we are either ignorant or pretenders.

Julia Dutta said...

Hi Durga,
While I wait for Nathan to come to respond, a few important readings have come to my notice which I am placing here for readers to view. They are for and against conversion.
In a "Call To Arms" Smita asks if it is time again to ban the Bajrang dal for their evil acts across India )

and she says "The question now being asked, especially by civil rights organisations, is: is it time to ban the Bajrang Dal again? Queried on the subject—especially in the context of Orissa—Congress spokesperson and central minister Ajay Maken hesitated to go beyond saying: "For the first time after the post-Godhra violence, we have met the President to demand a CBI inquiry. If such an inquiry finds the organisation is the culprit, then its recognition has to be taken away."

Dal supporters during the Orissa bandh
The Dal's activities in Orissa and in the Jammu region have been dubious enough to warrant investigation, if not action. In Orissa, it has been at the forefront of the current violence against Christian tribals, following the murder of a VHP leader, Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, by Maoist groups. The toll has been huge: reports say 558 houses and 17 places of worship have been burnt in riots, and 12,539 people have taken shelter in 10 relief camps. That, in itself, should warrant action by the state." In the same issue B Raman, in the Hindu Christian divide

poses a counterpoint saying, "In Orissa, the brutal murder of a highly-respected leader of the Hindu community belonging to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) by a group of suspected Christian elements led to widespread attacks by members of the Hindu community--most of them allegedly belonging to the VHP-- on the Christan community" Further he adds - "The seeds of the Hindu-Christian divide were sown much later--long after India became independent. Even in the 1950s and the 1960s, there were concerns over the objectionable activities of foreign Christian missionaries in Indian territory. These activities perceived as objectionable not only by large sections of the Hindu community, but also by the intelligence and security agencies and by highly-respected leaders such as Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi consisted of attempts to indulge in large -scale conversion of underprivileged Hindus and animist tribals in Central India into Christianity with the help of large, unrestricted flow of funds from the Vatican and from Catholic and Baptist organisations in the US and the role played by foreign missionaries such as the late Rev.
Michael Scot in instigating the insurgency in the North-East where many of the inhabitants in Nagaland and Mizoram are Baptists."

For more do read the links given there. I feel for the tribals in Orissa. Whether they are Christian or Hindu is not my concern as much as it is this that if the Hindus are so concerned about the tribals there in Orissa, then they should do more than just screaming and shouting mantras and dancing like bare bodied monkeys before Gods in Temples. The sins they commit towards their poor brothren, in order that they can remain in power is translates as, poverty, non-education, slavery, bonded labour and many evils, I feel ashamed to state. That is all.

Thanks Durga for your interest and your involvement,

Anonymous said...


I am apalled at your naivty friend. its obvious you have internalised everything from biased websites you referred to and then you come here and espouse it as if you are an authority in Church history. Where are your opinions? Where is the research that supports your grand sweeping claims. when you throw in such broad generic phrases like " Throughout the ages" you are leaving yourself to a lot of embarassment. Have you been watching too much news channels lately and become so gullible to propoganda?
How many ages are you referring to? When did Church come into being? I am sure you'll use the very website you have referred to as the crutch to support your claim that Chritianity is the bloodiest religion. Right? friend if you search the net or anywhere else you ll find Christians are not perturbed by such claims. Christianity and christian thought has evolved enough to tolerate dissent and opinions. Bible reveals its characters, unlike most other scriptures men and women in thier weakness. In thier sin. Thier greatness is always in thier willingness to seek out God.
I noticed that, throughout the post you have made such unsupported claims using it to establish that man is evil. Your are right Mr Durgashankar. The Bible begins with that very universal and recognised bane of humanity. SIN. Man is sinful and man needs God. Man who is by nature sinful cannot work his own salvation. He needs help and he needs to be saved. His karma or punya can never save him.
Tell me Durga 300 years or so from now some website takes up the statistics of all the prisoners in India for various charges, along with corruption in every goverment office, to add to thier purpose also state that majority in India beleived in a religion that was considered 'mythology', how many where hanged that time and how they tortured some muslims to get information. Should the person reading such distorted presentation of information accept and begin to claim that hinduism was so barbaric!